Wednesday, September 12, 2018
Is Plato a Feminist?
Plato, through the mouthpiece of Socrates, advocates some radical views about woman in Chapter 7 of the Republic. In particular, he argues not only that women can be guardians, but that they can have equal duties (more or less) and an identical education. The only exception he makes is for physical difference between the sexes. These views are in stark contrast to a woman's place in 5th century Athens, in which a woman was prohibited from a political life and confined to the domestic household (and had a similarly limited education). Does it make sense to call Plato a feminist (and does it depend on your notion of feminism)? Or does Plato still miss something important about women? Furthermore, have we in 21st century America realized his ideas?
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The current dictionary definition of feminism is equal rights for men and women. Regardless of whether or not Plato believes that women are weaker than men, he still gives them equal rights in his ideal society. Plato states through Socrates that, “’There’s no administrative job in a community which belongs to a woman qua woman, or to a man qua man.’ ‘Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects’” (167). Even though Plato belittles women calling them weaker and rewarding men for good deeds by letting them have sex with women, he still gives them access to every job that men have access to including fighting wars. This alone makes him enough of a feminist at least for his time. In the 21st century, we have realized his basic ideas that women can work any job men can however there is still a wage gap between the two sexes in certain professions. Even so, I do not think Plato would be called a feminist in today’s society because it is not enough to just want equal working rights for men and women. The fact that Plato uses them as rewards for men treating them as objects and regards them as weaker would cancel out the feminist qualities that he does possess. For his time, Plato was quite the radical feminist however were he to hold his current viewpoints in today’s society, he would not be considered a feminist at all. His radical view that women can work any job men can has already been realized, and his other views on women being weaker are not feminist.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, it is reasonable to label Plato a feminist in fifth century BC Athens but it is insensible to make this same assumption in the modern day. Women in fifth century BC Athens were limited to the domestic sphere: being a wife, mother, and doing household jobs such as cooking and cleaning. Therefore, during this time period and based on the era’s standards, I would consider him a feminist, as he suggests removing the very domestic sphere into which women were caged. First, Plato’s idea of sharing wives and children strips the responsibilities of being a wife to a husband and a mother to a child from women. This is a radical departure from the Athenian norm, which only allowed women to fulfill these roles. Plato’s notion to move the societal norm away from marriage again reduces the domestic role of women. He implies that women should be permitted greater freedom and opportunity, which was then suppressed by their husbands and by societal conventions. To add on, Plato does not believe that women’s reproductive abilities stand in the way of their innate qualities to handle a specific task. In the theoretical society which he proposes, he states that men and women should practice the occupation best supported by their innate qualities, regardless of gender and based on an assessment of each individual’s capabilities. He offers this idea as an alternative to Athenian society’s automatic relegation of women to the role of housewife and mother, for which they may less be suited. Plato suggests that such equality should be achieved by providing the same physical and mental training to both genders. Specifically, he urges that women be given the same military training, hunting and guarding, and cultural studies-based education as men in order to bring about this equality. Plato’s views are definitely very liberal for Athens in the fifth century BC. Nevertheless, despite the above views, Plato still conforms to the conventional belief that men are physically stronger than women. Hence, he states that “women are innately weaker than men…[hence, women should] receive lighter duties than the men” (456a, 457a). Thus, Plato cannot be perceived as a feminist today because his exception of “lighter duties” does not cover all aspects of life and is in fact quite narrow. In the modern day, feminism describes the equality of men and women in all aspects. His notion of confining women to smaller duties in today’s world would create gender disparities and would close many jobs and other opportunities to women, which is entirely anti-feminist by current standards. Historically, the damaging notion of women’s innate weakness has been used to create pay discrepancies between men and women who are doing the same jobs. If Plato believes that women’s reproductive capabilities do not affect their innate ability to perform a task in a similar manner to a man, then, logically, he must also believe that women are as strong as men and should not be given lighter duties. His hypocrisy here is the reason why I must condemn him as an anti-feminist in the twenty first century.
ReplyDeleteIn the 21st century the definition of feminism is equality between men and women and the definition of a feminist is someone who supports feminism. For Plato, he does well in making his argument about a women’s role in society as equal. Socrates starts the conversation with stating that this thought might be deemed radical, which in Plato’s time it very well may be. He argues that in the guardians’ sector of the community, the men and women should be raised the same way in educational and cultural studies and be given the same occupations for the betterment of the community. A major conflict for these philosophers was the obvious, “’The only qualification is that we’re dealing with a physically weaker sex: the males are stronger’” (162). This barrier raised the question of how can we bring balance between strength of both genders. Well, since they will be raised the same way, taught the same way, and overtime bred for success, the gap between the “weakness” will close. In their further investigation, they stated that women are better at some aspects than men are and truly it comes down to the simple aspect that everyone is different and other exceed at different things. They then keep on coming to the conclusion that women can do anything a man can do but they must overcome the fact that they are biologically weaker. In the grand scheme of things, Plato is indeed a feminist. And like most male feminists of the 21st century they see the equality and also see the natural inequality, but they are aware it doesn’t matter.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not Plato is a feminist is contingent on the definition of feminism. While there are many relevant and valid definitions of feminism, I believe that, rather than involving politics, it simply means the belief that men and women are equal. Based on this definition, Plato is not a feminist, though he may be a women's activist as Jack argues. Plato, through Socrates, after establishing his view that women should participate in the same jobs, is quick to point out he still believes that "'[women] are the weaker sex in all respects'" (167). Plato makes it clear that, despite his progressive views about women's occupations, he is far from declaring their equality. To get more specific, Plato elaborates on qualities "'which enable you to define some people as naturally competent, and others as naturally incompetent'" (167) including quickness of learning, ease of mastery and contribution to the field as opposed to struggling to retain the information, and willpower in relation to the body. The men seem to agree that "'The one gender is far superior to the other in just about every sphere.'" (167). Equality is not his motivation in the views he expresses. His assertion that women should share in the work of the society does not stem from their merit. This is why they don't find it problematic to classify the women as "rewards" as Jack stated. Men are the primary beings, and, though women are lesser, Plato reasons that their inferior contribution to society would be more than no contribution at all.
ReplyDeleteAs seen in the Republic by Plato, Plato is not a feminist because he holds a view that women are inferior to men and his system for mating objectifies women, which both go against the fundamental idea of feminism. Feminism is essentially the idea that women are equal to men, and they should be treated as such. Plato, while pondering his utopian community, suggests that women should be given the same opportunities as men in their education and occupation. This idea would be seen as radically progressive in Ancient Greece and perhaps even in the present-day; however, immediately after proposing this idea Plato reveals his true opinions on women. He holds the belief that “[men are] far superior to [women] in just about every sphere,” (455d). Not only is Plato referring to women being physically weaker, he claims that women are worse at doing anything when compared to men. It seems as though his proposal for jobs and schooling is just “throwing a bone” to women, even though they do not deserve it. Although almost any self-proclaimed feminist would concede that there are inherent biological differences between the sexes, Plato’s idea completely contradicts the concept of feminism. Likewise, while offering his mating system, Plato fails to regard women as anything other than a sex object and a child-birther. His idea is that “the main privilege and reward that any young men who are good at fighting or at some other activity ought to receive is the right to sleep with the women more frequently,” (460b). Sex becomes an award not for women, but just for outstanding men, and the women are expected to bear child. This system belittles women as solely objects for use, which is contrary to the ideals of feminism. Plato’s ideal community includes opportunities for women which at first seem sympathetic to the feminist cause, however his true opinions on women disqualify Plato from being considered a feminist.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I believe that Plato is indeed a feminist. It is important to define him as such relative to the era in which he lived and what the social norms were at that time. As mentioned above in previous responses, the current definition of feminism in the 21st century is the belief that men and women should have equality. So Plato would not be considered a feminist if one applies this definition. However, I believe that it would be unfair for Plato to be compared to this 21st century definition. During the time of Plato, there is no evidence of a modern feminist movement. The widely held view was simple - men thought they were superior to women, as mentioned in the book. Plato himself believed that the most important role for women was to bear children. However, Plato is very progressive for his time and expressed opinions that differed from most of his peers. During Plato’s time, men were generally unaccepting of women’s rights so it would be expected for him to share these same beliefs. However, it is quite the opposite. Even knowing that his contemporaries would disagree with his positions, Plato still advocates for women’s rights. For example, he believes that women can be Guardians if they are fit to do so. He is stepping outside of the norm to share what he believes. One thing a current feminist would try to do is change the law to ensure or promote equality, and isn’t that exactly what Plato is doing? He is stating how he believes women should have more opportunities, even though he still considers men as the superior sex. The fact that he still believes men are superior and stronger in gender roles should not be the deciding factor in establishing whether Plato should be considered a feminist or not. He is coming from a society that has very well defined gender roles and biases. This belief is not going to change overnight. Although Plato is not advocating for full equality, he is going against long-held stereotypes of gender roles. Every movement has to start somewhere.
ReplyDeleteThough Plato’s comments on gender equality and societal responsibility do not perfectly align with feminism in 2018, Plato can be a considered a feminist due to his belief in the inherent equality between the two sexes and the notion that different individuals will have different capabilities, regardless of gender. Whether we are discussing feminism in 380 BC or 2018, the principles of the movement remain the same: equality between the two sexes. Plato, though limited by his time, agrees with this notion. Early in the chapter, Socrates demonstrates Plato’s feminist beliefs in asking Glaucon, ‘“Can you employ any two creature for the same purposes if you haven’t given them the same upbringing and education?’” (Waterfield 162). This question reveals one of Plato’s key feminist notions. In having Socrates ask this question of Glaucon, Plato acknowledges the status quo of the argument in that Greek society believes men and women have different capabilities. However, Plato refutes this idea through Socrates’ question by speaking on the role training and education can play in women performing equal tasks. This concept is rather modern and overlaps with current feminist adages such as “Equal Pay for Equal Work.” The main idea is that women have the innate ability to perform on an equivalent plane as their male counterparts given the chance. Additionally, Plato’s tendency to avoid stereotypical or “blanket” statements about male and female abilities indicates that Plato does not subscribe to sexist thought. Socrates continues his discussion with Glaucon and inquires, ‘“isn’t it the case that some women may be good at sports or warfare, while others aren’t…And philosophically inclined or disinclined too? And some may be passionate, while others aren’t?”’ Glaucon responds in the affirmative and Socrates continues, ‘“Some women may make good guardians, then, while others won’t, since these were the innate qualities we selected as the marks of men who would make good guardians, weren’t they?”’ (Waterfield 168). Despite Plato’s use of “men” to mean people, again this is 380 BC, he is ultimately demonstrating an enlightened understanding of treating people as individuals with unique abilities no matter their gender. Appreciating people for their individual ethos as opposed to their collective gender identity is much in the vein of modern feminism. Today, we encourage people to disregard their notions of gender in order to treat people equally. In this way, Plato was ahead of his time and should be commended for such.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, in the context of chapter 7, Plato's views and opinions are undoubtedly quite unique and progressive for the time, I don't believe this makes him a feminist due to the rest of his views and the context of his 'progressiveness'. Throughout the chapter Plato surprisingly sides with the idea that women, like men, should have the opportunity to work similar jobs, as long as they possess the required talent or ‘natural ability’. This suggestion is quite astounding for its time: women were restricted a majority of jobs and positions due to their gender, but instead, Plato acts as if this way of thinking is irrelevant, and that, “if either the male or female gender turns out to be better than the other at some profession… [it] ought to be assigned to that gender.” (166) In general, equal opportunity between genders is still quite a recent idea/progression, so it is understandable that Plato could be considered a feminist for this very reason, if not for the rest of his ideas: primarily that women are “the weaker sex in all respects.” (167) Plato, even after essentially advocating for equal opportunity, unflinchingly believes that they are the ‘weaker sex’ and, in this way, he essentially ‘looks down on them’. Although he isn’t in any way contradicting himself here (as Laura convinced me in class), the fact that his opinions are coming from a standpoint where men are superior somewhat undermines his previous statements. Instead of believing that women should have equal rights for the purpose of equality, Plato wants them have these opportunities so that they can benefit, and be useful to, their society. From this perspective you could also argue that this is a form of objectification, although I wouldn’t necessarily go this far due to the fact that Plato seems to treat all the citizens, including men, as object or animals. I think to label someone a feminist, not only do their actions and goals matter, but the reasons and means for doing them. For this reason Plato, from my perspective, is more of an ‘accidental feminist’ than an actual advocator for women rights.
ReplyDeleteHaving said all that (as a side note), I do respect/agree with Jacks standpoint that, since the definition of feminism today generally means to fight for women’s right in the goal of equality, Plato is a feminist for arguing for equality in a society, even though Plato doesn’t view them as equal. I also like the argument that our definition or idea of feminism today can’t strictly be related to theirs (since it’s a bit less than a 2000 year gap), therefore he could be considered a feminist, strictly in that time.
Plato, though not perfect, seemed as one of the most progressive feminists of his time. In Plato's era, it was almost unheard of to compare women to men on equal playing fields, as when Plato was discussing roles in an ideal society, Plato was "afraid and didn’t really want to get involved with regulations about what to do with wives and how to bring up children" (pg 165). It is interesting to observe that even though Plato believes that women and men should both share the same work, he believed that women were still "innately weaker than men" (pg 168). However, although he expresses his opinion that "[men are] far superior to [women] in just about every sphere"(pg 167), he still believes that men and women should be educated on equal terms as men, targeting the root cause of inequality: the educational system. Since in the fifth century BC it was unheard of for women to get an education, Plato had to prove that women deserve the same education as men. Using the example of a woman guardian, he explains “in order to make women good at guarding, we won’t be providing them with a different education from the one that works for men…” (pg 169). To prove this, he draws the connection that shoemakers who are educated will obviously "prove to be the better" than non-educated shoemakers since they "have been educated in their craft" (pg 169). He argues that therefore, "the women [who are educated in their craft]… will be better than all the rest of the women" (pg 169). Since the women who are educated in their craft will be better than those who were not educated, Plato draws the conclusion that it is better for the community itself not to exclude women from the education that men get since it is “better for a community than… to engender women and men who are exceptionally good” (pg 169). However, Plato seems to take a complete 180 from his viewpoint that women are equal to men by stating “However, they will receive lighter duties than the men, because of the weakness of their sex” (pg 169-170). Being indoctrinated in a society that believed that women were inherently worse than men were, Plato has a hard time as well believing that women were equal to men. Whether this was because Plato had never seen a woman that was physically equal to a man due to the blatant sexism, or he truly believed that women were inferior to men, Plato is undoubtedly one of the most progressive thinkers of his time, though definitely “feminist” by any means (through todays standards).
ReplyDeleteshoot m last sentence was supposed to be "definitely NOT "feminist" by any means"
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In my opinion, the definition of feminism is very important as to defining whether Plato was a feminist. Nowadays, feminism is the belief that men and women are equal and deserve equal opportunities. If that is the definition, then Plato cannot be considered a feminist due to the fact that, even though he stood up to the social norms of the time and was quite progressive in believing women deserved rights, he did not believe women should have the same opportunities as men. However, I do not believe whether Plato is a feminist or not should be decided on our definition of feminism today. It is made clear multiple times throughout his stories that Plato shows signs of believing women deserve actual rights, when it was generally believed at the time that women were far less deserving of rights and opportunity. When discussing his ideal society, Plato said he was "afraid and didn’t really want to get involved with regulations about what to do with wives and how to bring up children" (pg 165). Most people just immediately put women below men, but Plato at least challenged the idea that they were inherently inferior. So, for Plato to share his very unpopular opinion, I think it warrants him being labeled a feminist for his time, but nothing more than an activist for women's rights in today's society (Like Jack Laura said).
ReplyDeleteI think that for this time, Plato is indeed a feminist. Plato evokes complicated ideas that would even be rejected in the society that he lives in. Plato, when asked about his thoughts on society, he says “’it’s not an easy matter to go into, Glaucon,’ (Socrates) said. ‘There are plenty of reasons for misgivings – even more than in the matters we’ve already discussed. I mean, one might doubt the viability of the proposal, and even granting its viability, there’ll be room for doubting whether it’s the best course of action” (pg Plato 161). Plato shows hesitance to even voice his opinion as most people would not believe him or say that it is not possible. Plato then continues on to talk about the innate qualities that men and women have by saying “’innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects’” (Plato 167). Plato argues that both men and women have traits that are innate to their sex. Men have an innate quality that they are superior in, but it’s balanced out by the fact that women also has equally important traits that they are superior at performing. Plato also argues that both men and women can perform the same tasks, the only difference is that women are biologically weaker. Plato obviously argues equality between the sexes, something that would be considered unpopular in Roman culture at the time. This proves that he was obviously progressive with his thoughts on women in society and also makes me consider him a feminist.
ReplyDeleteThough Plato does show some characteristics that are seen as Feminist, he is most certainly not a feminist. Plato argues for the equal duty and responsibility that woman have to his ideal society, but not because they are able too, as many people have already said, Plato believes that woman are inherently worse than men. Instead, Plato sees it as a necessary sacrifice, that woman should be included because they might as well use whatever they can get, and not let anyone laze around in their perfect society. He says that the woman would share the responsibility of caring for the children, and this is a pretty progressive view, that woman don't need to dedicate their lives to childcare. But this isn't because woman have the right to do other things, but because he doesn't want the parents to know who their children are, Plato also proposes a breeding program, and says, as many have already pointed out, that men should be rewarded for good work by getting to sleep with the woman. In a weird way, this might be making men and woman equal, because Plato does not see men and woman, but as cogs and parts of his great and perfect society, so they are both equally degraded to mere parts. Though, with all of Plato's talk of the "inferior woman" and having men be rewarded with the right to sleep with woman, it is clear that he is not a feminist.
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